It has come to a point where I simply have to use LTO-6 as a viable long-term media. Sadly, the HGST 3 Tb drives that I bought 3 years ago are showing bad sectors big time. Of the 140 batch, about 8 already shown.

That's very disturbing. Luckily, I made two backups and never did the two backups gone bad. Not to say that it will never happen, there's still that small chance. In general hdd is something I simply can't to to sleep on after couple years. HDDs are still needed because of their very fast response time. But for long-term, off-line storage, they're a ticking decaying time bomb. I do not like having to refresh every other year to keep it alive.

It's very costly in power utility bill.I'm using the HP 6250. The LTFS is great when you archive. But restoring it is another story. It's snail pace vs backup. Just not what I have in mind for LTO-6.

I'm very concerned that in a decade from now, will that LTO-6 still be able to recover on the latest Mac Pro or whatever name they have in 2024. My archives are mostly priceless & timeless raw cam originals from P2 all the way to F55 4K SxS. I will keep them all and always want the original vs. The transcoded version. Those are ideal for LTO because it doesn't change a lot.

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I average about 40-50 Tb per month in raw content. Purchasing twin 4 Tb hdds add up quickly.

The latest price for HP MP LTO-6 media is about $70. A $40 drop just 6 months ago when it was $110. That's quite attractive now to get into LTO-6.It looks like the top two candidates are BRU PE or PreRoll post.

I'm still skeptical on PreRoll post as it's fairly new to the market and don't know if they're in biz in the next decade or more. Imagine Products is a small company. Has not yet established long-term and that's a risk. Anybody has any opinions on them? I need to make a good decision and would prefer to stick to a single software solution for many years to come. I'm relatively new to this LTFS thing.

For me, LTFS just doesn't correspond to enterprise scale archival. It's more for simple, smaller scale manual backup. No spanning and verification is a no-no for me.

The time if take to manually sort each hdd to 2.5 Tb to fit LTO-6 max capacity is already eating up too much valuable time. Both apps cost the same. I'm leaned toward purchasing BRU PE within this week. Will start to archive 120 3 Tb hdds and 150 4 Tb hdds.

Don't want to waste time starting w/ LTFS and then switch to another format 1/3 of the way into the long archival process. Sam,While I'll agree that LTFS is not without its pitfalls, we see growing traction for it becoming the standard for writing to LTO in the media and entertainment realm. It is unlikely if you were to get started with a good solution that you would find you have to change.I would note that several manufacturers, including Cache-A, have addressed the issues you are encountering.

We support tape spanning as do, for example Crossroads and SDNA. We also solve the restore speed issue you've identified - this occurs when restore file lists are not in the order the files reside on tape, causing the tape to have to shuttle back and forth to the start of each file. Our LTFS restores are always presorted for tape order and can be just as fast as archiving.You should be aware that we are seeing more and more interchange and delivery being specified for LTFS and traditional tar being used only for in house archiving (we support both formats). For example, Discovery Communications now accepts from its content producers only LTFS for delivery of footage, graphics and program masters for all its various channels.Tom GoldbergCache-A Corporation433 Park Point DriveGolden, CO 80401mailto:tom.goldberg@cache-a.com. Tom Goldberg 'I would note that several manufacturers, including Cache-A, have addressed the issues you are encountering. We support tape spanning as do, for example Crossroads and SDNA'And, you pay quite a premium to get theses add-on abilities. These 'features' also add a layer above LTFS that then obviate the LTFS open source status since you're now adding proprietary wrappers around the LTFS core to get that new functionality.

LTFS - Free with your drive. BRU PE - $499. PreRoll Post - $499. Cache-A - PowerCache (required starting point) $10,995, 48 Slot, LTO-6 Library for tape support - $10,795.

Crossroads - StrongBox is available in three models, starting at $20,000 and scaling according to archive capacity and capabilities. StrongBox T1 manages up to 200 million files. Sorry Tim, but I need to correct some of the information in your reply.Tim Jones 'These 'features' also add a layer above LTFS that then obviate the LTFS open source status since you're now adding proprietary wrappers around the LTFS core 'There are no 'layers' or 'wrappers' used - all tapes are still LTFS conforming and interchangeable - not proprietary.

For example, for spanning what we do (as I believe other manufacturers do) is simply automatically re-create your file tree as needed across tapes. This would be exactly the same as if you manually copied a too-large data set across several disk drives.Tim Jones 'Cache-A - PowerCache (required starting point) $10,995, 48 Slot, LTO-6 Library for tape support - $10,795'You can certainly go big with Cache-A's premier solution of a Power-Cache and Library, but this is not a required starting point. All LTFS capabilities are in all Cache-A models (except Simul-Copy which requires at least 2 drives). Our entry unit which is a self-contained appliance with an LTO-5 drive starts at $7995 including all hardware, software and warrantied for 1 year with support, ready to go out of the box and fully tar and LTFS capable. No cards to install or software to load, just connect it to your network and start archiving.Tim Jones 'according to our conversation with the folks at Discovery, their number one support issue is the inability to read LTFS tapes sent in from Clients'Discovery may have had early LTFS delivery issues, but they are still very much committed to the format and are working past startup issues with their content producers.

They do have some special requirements that, while not making their tapes proprietary, do require specific files and LTFS formatting parameters to write them correctly. Cache-A's latest releases write tapes that pass 2 out of 3 of Discovery's delivery specifications (Footage Masters and Graphics Masters) and the 3rd spec'd tape (Program Masters) is at Discovery for validation as I write this.Tom GoldbergCache-A Corporation433 Park Point DriveGolden, CO 80401mailto:tom.goldberg@cache-a.com. Tom -If the user doesn't buy those various solutions - they get none of those features.

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That's my point. Maybe 'propriety' wasn't the right word, but the lack of your (and their) extra cost components means that the user doesn't gain access to those features without spending quite a bit more money (your's being the lesser of the crowd).I was comparing LTO-6 to LTO-6. If you wish to compare LTO-5, then our solution drops to $6,973. And, because we ARE connected by direct attach SAS (which only adds $499 if you need Thunderbolt II), you get full drive performance of 140MB/sec (LTO-5) or 180MB/sec (LTO-6) instead of 1GbE speed (85MB/sec to 95MB/sec).

I understand that you try to mitigate this buy performing the disk-tape copy out of band so that the network isn't involved in that step, but the user is still going to be impacted by the network infrastructure when originally copying the clips.As for Discovery, it's not just 'early' issues as I've just gotten off a call with a producer that is VERY frustrated as Discovery have returned their LTFS tapes multiple times - and this is very recently. You can be as committed as you like to a given mechanism, but if the mechanism is flawed, all of the commitment in the world isn't going to resolve the problems.Again, none of those issues or additional financial overhead exist with BRU.Tim-Tim JonesCTO - TOLIS Group, Inc.BRU. Because it's the RESTORE that matters!

So far after several days of use w/ the BRU PE 3.0.2, I do like the fact that I don't have to install these annoying HP LTFS drivers and the two other sub drivers. Just the ATTO H680 OSX 10.9.1 drivers and BRU 3.0.2 and be done with it.

Archiving huge amount of data to LTO-6 now w/ BRU 3.0.2 in OSX Mavericks. Multitasking w/ FCP 10.1 on light edits.

It's quite smooth and no crashing so far after 3 days straight. I'm looking in the long-term, like a decade from now and I have no idea what other flavors of LTFS will be out there. Need to restore all raw footage for a long-form, decade-long documentary media and BRU 3.0.2 seems to be able to have that ability.

Sam - thank you for your consideration. We will always work very hard to make sure that BRU lives up to both our claims and your expectations. Unlike what some backup solution providers believe, those two things are NOT mutually exclusive:).One thing that has been a stable element with BRU is our full support of old archives.

The version of BRU that we create today MUST restore the data from some DDS-1, QIC150, and Exabyte 8200 8MM test tapes created as far back as 1988. Heck, even TAR can't make a claim of that level of backwards compatibility.Please don't hesitate to make requests for new features since we serve no purpose if we're not doing what you need.Tim-Tim JonesCTO - TOLIS Group, Inc.BRU.

Because it's the RESTORE that matters! I'm still evaluating by performing various backup types and scenarios.

So far I'm testing out the ability to send BRU archives to other TV stations nationally and internationally. The issue I came up with is when I export the catalog, it BRU 3.0.2 says it imports OK but it won't show up. It only shows up when I actually insert all the LTO-6 cartridges for the Import Tool.app and it will show up. I contacted support and will wait for their answer on this. The story to that 3.5 Tb archive is that the verification was cancelled.

This is because I set the cache to a low 128 Kb and not 2048 Kb. Not sure if canceling verification has any effect on not being able to export the catalog out. On another Mac Pro, I took used import tool.app to rebuild the catalog and export it out to a hdd.

Then I took that.bru file to another Mac and import it in. This is where the tape catalog will not show up in the Restore portion of the app no matter what or how many times I re-import that.bru catalog. Either a bug or user error here.Feature request wise, still evaluating mode. But something will pop up for sure after that period. So far it appears that I'll have to get at least 3-4 LTO-6 drives and at least the same amount of BRU licenses for the volume of data I'm doing to be able to get the archives done quickly. Single LTO-6 drive won't work out at all.

Sam,We've used both BRU PE and PreRollPost. We had numerous issues with BRU PE over the couple of years we used it, the software's GUI is really inconsistent and buggy, and when you build up a good size library of archives, it takes forever for the program to load.

PreRollPost uses LTFS, an open standard that is becoming more and more widely adopted, does provide MD5 checksum verification, and orders the files for quick backup and restore, and stores archive data in a MySQL Lite format, which is searchable within the application. If you've used the bare bones software HP or IBM provide, this is a different animal altogether. The program has improved in the past year quite a bit and they are very responsive to user feedback.Most of the responders in the forum have a dog in the hunt, so to say. I'm just a user and have been using tape backup products for 15+ years or more. PRP might not be right for you, but people should definitely try it out before dismissing LTFS altogether.

Along with BRU PE, it's really the most economical solution. I'm still evaluating the two apps. Only when one uses each after a good period, then its strength and weaknesses will be realized. Still only have a single LTO-6 drive for testing purposes. LTO-6 is not fast and it takes time especially backing up raw camera footage files.On Pre Roll Post, will that PRP LTFS created backup be readable in BRU?

I don't really mind using LTFS. But the drivers needed is a concern. Because I use LTO-6 strictly for very long-term archival and not backup, my need is to be able to restore that data many years from now and not having to dig up obsolete older version of LTFS driver just to be able to restore that data.I used to do tape backups in the late 90s w/ DDS-3. Data capacity scale was in the 18-50 Gb range. Hdd was a premium. Used to remember a 4 Tb Seagate external SCSI-2 drive costed about $1K. Nowhere close to the TB range as seen today at 1/10 the cost.

DDS-2 was quite unreliable for media archives and literally abandoned it for almost 20 years. DLT was hot during the early 2000s. But didn't really bothered to get into it because it was in the $4K range. Good thing I did not because DLT won't be able to archive Tb of data economically. Fast forward to now I'm out of touch w/ the latest in backup apps & software. I prefer not to use turnkey systems.

Prefer the software and tape drive solution only. But whatever it's one thing for certain is that hdd will go bad on you at anytime - especially when it's sitting on the shelf for years w/ out powering it. About 8 of my 150 3 Tb hdds (only after 3 years) are all experiencing sector read errors. I don't know about LTO-6 media gone bad years even after full verify during the archive process.

This hdd read sector error is unacceptable for my needs and LTO-6 is the only viable solution that is appealing in cost and overall flexibility. Kevin - while you have run into some of the GUI issues that we've suffered with our UI through the versions, one thing that we're very proud of is that at no time has a BRU backup left you with a tape or disk based archive from which you could not restore. This cannot be said for any LTFS implementation.For a perfect test example - select a few 10's of GB of data and start writing them to tape with BRU. Before the job finishes, shut the tape drive off (simulating a power loss. Hard tape failure or system failure). BRU PE will complain and the job will abort.

Now, perform the same steps with a mounted LTFS tape - drag and drop the same files to the LTFS tape and before the copy completes, power off the drive.From this situation, everything that BRU had written onto the tape can be easily restored. However, you'll find that you can't even remount the LTFS volume. Now, imagine that you were actually 2TB into a 2.5TB job. Where would you rather be with that data?Just saying'.Tim-Tim JonesCTO - TOLIS Group, Inc.BRU. Because it's the RESTORE that matters! Sorry - just checking in on this one recently.The anecdotal information about StorageDNA pricing is incorrect.Pricing of StorageDNA LTFS based solutions start under $8K and are turnkey, meaning they INCLUDE hardware, software, connectivity etc. Hi Doug,The price I mentioned was based on the number that one of our customers was quoted.

It included a 2U Library and LTO-6. But as you mention, what your products provide is far and beyond the free LTFS that is open source.

This is the point that I'm trying to get across in this discussion. LTFS does NOT bring all of that needed functionality to the game, the companies that provide the wrappers around LTFS such as both StorageDNA and Image Products do.And, to the best of my knowledge, neither StorageDNA, Crossroads, Cache-A nor PreRoll Post products are open source. Thus my point that the discussion of 'proprietary' totally depends on which part of the solution that you are looking at.Tim-Tim JonesCTO - TOLIS Group, Inc.BRU.

Because it's the RESTORE that matters! Tim -When it comes down to it, many customers are actually looking for a more functional, open and workflow based solution - one that fits into their file-based pipelines and actually helps solve more of their challenges - not simply moving content from one place to another. If these features are not important to a customer, we (and they) walk away - as they are not our target audience.As far as LTFS is concerned, your portrayal of it as an unreliable and unusable technology is just not true, as evidenced by the hundreds of customers we have using it every day in very critical environments.One should also realize that Discovery's inability to read LTFS tapes submitted to them has more to do with their very specific naming, placement of files (data and metadata) requirements, rather than the LTFS format itself. We've had to make several tweeks to our Discovery features based on a customers' rejection from Discovery and not once has it had to do with the actual formatting of the tape. Once again, for this very specialized use case - many users are finding that it is worth paying for a good piece of software to be able to match those requirements - which DNA Evolution (and others) can do.Even you have to admit - there must have been a reason why one of your own customers went as far as receiving a quote for a DNA Evolution system- just sayin'Regards,Doug. Doug,You're correct, they got an SDNA quote (and a Cache-A quote, and a Quantum quote, and a SpectraLogic quote) and then bought our solution.You (and others) have chosen to take the LTFS path as your primary tape format. This is a good thing because you have all brought many of the features that LTFS should have had built in to your users.

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We have chosen to support LTFS in a secondary roll with an understanding of its weaknesses and strengths. My point is that TANSTAAFL - LTFS is what it is, but you pay extra - very much extra in some cases - to make LTFS truly useable.We sell a lot of BRU solutions to users that started with an LTFS option and became frustrated with the issues. The purpose of a backup / archival solution is to make sure that you can get the data back later. This is our focus - the reliability of the data written to the archival device regardless of it's type / technology. This is also why we don't write a MAM/DAM and instead partner with others to provide that part of the solution.Tim-Tim JonesCTO - TOLIS Group, Inc.BRU.

Because it's the RESTORE that matters! Sam,We introduced PreRollPost at NAB 2012. Our company has been providing workflow solutions for the video industry since 1991-including many cataloging, backup, transcoding and library solutions on various platforms.

(The 2002 Winter Olympics in Salt Lake used our Windows library system for their archives.)Just a couple points to consider.LFTS is an open standard. That means there are.many. solutions out there supporting it, now and in the future. Tapes are interchangeable between them, and you can always get files off the tapes even without a given manufacturer's software.When we were repeated asked to provide a LTFS solution it became immediately apparent that the big pitfall for software only solutions (where we're not providing the turnkey box as a pre-loaded appliance) was the driver installations. So PRP does all that for you with a single install click.PRP has built-in tape spanning and tape duplication features. For spanning, we know video and break backup files logically so there is no tape dependencies (e.g.

A given camera created volume will not be split between two tapes).For best practices you should always make at least two copies of archives and store them in different locations. (If the sprinkler goes off it doesn't matter how the tapes are formatted they're going to be ruined.)PreRollPost can control two or more tape drives at the same time to write identical tapes for you. Or you can mount and duplicate a tape-to-tape later at any time.As for the power interruption scenario, first of all something as essential as a backup station should be on a UPS if for no other reason than power conditioning. But if a write session is stopped by power outage LTFS does have recovery options such as mounting the tape in 'Read Only' mode or deep data recovery tools. These are built into PRP to assist you.Let me be clear, you can damage any tape by power off during a write session-Not during a Read.LTFS also is improving. It also has built-in self healing by reading bytes after they're written and automatically re-writing them if need be.The current version of PRP supports all 3 Discovery tape types and has been certified by them. Also, we've included Discovery Metadata Editor to create the required metadata XML files.

There's also a Discovery Tape Verifier feature, so you can check your tapes against Discovery's rules before delivering-regardless of how you make the tape-.I'm a little surprised by your recovery speed issue. One of the advantages of LTO-6 is improved retrieve speed. However, to get the best performance the data needs to be organized and called up in an efficient manner. Perhaps you were simply using Finder to dump files onto the tape and trying to bring them back in your initial tests?Writing, searching and retrieving are the main reasons for using a software application or turnkey appliances when working with LTFS (or any proprietary format for that manner).One of the things not mentioned by others in this thread is that PreRollPost is the only solution that also offers visual indices.

Besides automatically extracting video metadata, it also generates thumbs for your content. You can also add proxy generation and instant playback of video content in native or proxy formats. If you choose to make proxies, these can be done ahead of the backup session or during it.Good luck in your search and tests Sam. If you have any questions feel free to ask via our website. DanOffload with Confidence.

Let me start by saying that I agree that PreRoll Post has brought a lot of goodness to the LTFS format for a far more reasonable price than other solutions. However, PRP is NOT the LTFS format. And, PRP's ability to write to tape is at the whim of the engineers writing the LTFS specification unless you spin off your own code tree that your team controls.

But then, you're adding to the already existing 21 known LTFS implementations currently in the wild.Dan Montgomery 'Let me be clear, you can damage any tape by power off during a write session-Not during a Read.Dan - that is not true. You can't damage the tape through a power loss event. With BRU's format (or tar or cpio for that matter), powering off the tape drive does not affect any of the data that has been written onto the tape up to the point of the failure.

And even with the -deep-recovery option to LTFSCK, you still run into far more unrecoverable tapes than you should - this is a weakness related to the dual partition nature of the format.Dan Montgomery 'LTFS also is improving. It also has built-in self healing by reading bytes after they're written and automatically re-writing them if need be.' This statement is misleading and I'm not sure what LTFS code you're looking at, but LTFS' read after write verification is totally dependent on the tape drive's algorithms, not something special in LTFS. Any software that writes to a tape device has gotten this functionality for free as far back as the QIC drives of the 1980s - it's not an LTFS thing and has no relationship to LTFS. However, this functionality is highly affected by the GIGO effect - Garbage In, Garbage Out - in that the drive is only able to compare the data that it received in it's input buffers.

We have a white paper that describes the way this works on our site:. To perform software controlled Read After Write verification as you imply would slow the format's write speed dramatically.Dan Montgomery 'There's also a Discovery Tape Verifier feature, so you can check your tapes against Discovery's rules before delivering-regardless of how you make the tape-.' The problems related in my discussion were not in the formatting of the data in the strict Discovery layout, but rather that inability of the tapes to be read at all.

This is an LTFS theme that continues to crop up time and again - the LTFS tape that you created today, can't be mounted and read next week.Additionally, we've (the tape industry members including Exabyte, Archive, HP, and a few no longer existing firms) demonstrated at public shows such as COMDEX, CeBIT, IBC and InterOp (plus many smaller regional shows) that modern tape media is much more resilient than nay-sayers promote. We froze tapes, soaked them in coffee, and even went so far as passing consumer-grade magnets over them and were still quite able to restore the data that existed on them after drying and warming the media to normal operating temperatures and humidity levels. So while I definitely agree that two copies at different locations is better than one copy in a desk drawer, the concern over getting an LTO tape wet and losing data is not a valid scenario. In fact, with LTO media, it takes physical destruction of the cartridge to really create a scenario where data cannot be retrieved from a tape.Oh, and BRU PE has offered Doubler Mode (writing the same data to two tapes simultaneously) since 2006. We even sell Desktop, Rackmount, and library hardware packages that offer the Doubler Mode solution in a very easy to use, plug and play package.One additional comment about your site - PreRoll Post is LTFS compatible, not LTFS certified or compliant. The compliance testing suite is still being defined and currently only applies to writers of the LTFS low-level driver tools.

User-level applications are not currently being certified for compliance. The current list of compliant solutions is offered on the LTO.org site here (scroll to the bottom) -Tim-Tim JonesCTO - TOLIS Group, Inc.BRU. Because it's the RESTORE that matters! Thanks Tim for reminding me why I don't normally post in forums (and won't comment beyond this).Your opinion (and livelihood) apparently depend upon a proprietary system somehow being more reliable than LTFS.

Sorry, I don't buy it. There are many petabytes stored using this open standard and it's growing, not declining.Heck, there's even an article in this month's TV Technology about OpenAXF using LTFS.' With LTFS, the industry has a data tape interchange standard that support file system access.' Using LTFS is the key to having interchangeability between third-party data tape systems.' .XenDataYes, there have been many 'flavors' of LTFS but as you know that's to match the manufacturer's equipment.

It's no different than seeing continually updated ATTO drivers so the SAS card will work with the latest OS version so you can mount YOUR tape drive.And BTW I was just at Discovery and they made no mention of any problems mounting tapes. Ever.So bottom line Sam: Don't be afraid of LTFS. It will be around long after we're all gone.Offload with Confidence.

Posted on by Please read my product review. TOLIS Group was a sponsor of the Digital Production Buzz in 2014. 12/21/15 – Updated throughout with corrections from TOLIS Group.Archiving is one of those tasks that everyone puts off until we run out of excuses. First, because we are too busy. Second, because we don’t understand it. And, third, because it takes too long, costs too much and is too difficult to learn.NOTE: The difference between backups and archives are that backups are short-term and archives are long-term.BRU PE (Producer’s Edition) from TOLIS Group is designed to simplify archiving so that you can safely protect your assets without becoming a rocket scientist.

While this software is most often bundled with LTO hardware, if you already own an LTO drive, you can purchase the software separately.EXECUTIVE SUMMARYBRU PE provides a straight-forward method of transferring any digital file from hard disk to LTO tape.